Discussion of "The Unfairness of the Web Community ( If you can read this I want your Comment!)" by thamagnopen

You are so right and thank you for voicing alot of my thoughts. I have said it once and I'll say it again I really lack in the punctuation department and that takes away from my work, all I want is for people to focus on the story aspect because that is why I write. Additionally I feel you are correct about giving everyone fair notice and I will certainly make more of an effort to do so, thank you friend.

Thanks Jakestar for your comment, and note, I didn't write this to be right, I wrote it to be heard, because I really love this site.

In my opinion, i like to read what catches my eye. and i am sure everyone is the same way. I know that will be the same for people who read my stuff, some it will grab and some it won't. but oh well. But, i do not want to leave a comment telling people,"hey you did not catch my eye, try better next time." that would be wrong, "in my opinion. But i like this site because I can add to other chapters if my fancy takes, that is cool.

As for the elite groups, that is the way of this world. I think it is an easy way for people to not do a lot of thinking. They run with the heard. When coruption is involved, ie money ext, then the site has no choice but to die, from it's own putrid ways.

Why is Tila Tequilla #2 in the music section of myspace, her music is ****, really ****, written by somebody else, so I am with you there. or something!

I appreciate you commenting DwayneHoover, It feels great to hear what the community is thinking and feeling. I'll be reading ya!!

You say you don't leave a comment when something doesn't catch your eye... But in my opinion ;) it could be very important to leave such a comment. For instance, say the story actually did catch your eye at first - the first two or three paragraphs are engaging. But then, you continue reading and your attention starts to drift to the fact that you forgot to move the laundry into the dryer... and you're a bit farther in the story and you try to read a little more, but you can't. The characters just aren't cutting it for you or there's a lack of setting, or any number of excuses.

Say you get half way through the story - but you don't want to vote because you're thinking it's worth a 2, BUT you didn't actually read all the way to the end. And, maybe if the writer had done something better with their characters or maybe it just really needed to be proofed before they published it...

I thought that was what the comments section was for. BUT, when I left a comment along those lines, I was accused of being arrogent and ignorant. And, following the comment from that writer came other comments from other readers/friends(?) of the writer which amounted to ego stroking and further statements of my ignorance.

To me, this was a violation of the "code of conduct" and it was pointed out to the admin of the site, but a week has gone by... I totally feel for everyone who is having difficulty being seen or heard in this community as there clearly is an elitist sect which has found a way to dominate the site.

In my opinion feels very right to me just sometimes I dind't feel like saying it so therefore I will write what comes to mind...the obvious and that is just that...my opinion. You made a statement there and I wondered about hat being a newbie myself. I am here to see if I am getting somewhere with my brain and to see if you
the reader gets it as well. So questions about something I wrote and it might be wobbly..ask..I'll be delighted to tell ..yet another storie..lol. Thank you for being so outasking and wondering without attacking this system here..it would have discouraged me to no avail. Thank you and I hope to see more comments ...cuz I'm here to stay. I'm out of the closet and feel sooo much better about myself.
Thank you all for the fine reads.

Berlingirl Thanks! I just want your opinion to be just as important as the next persons. Also your writings to just be given a chance.

I enjoy great reads, and I also enjoy the person who simply tries.

Thanks and God Bless

Ja thanks. In all honesty..I dont give a rats **** about punks or is it..punkts..I'm confused. My point is. I'm not looking for an agent, I didn't go to college and held up my parents dough for rendering a degree in writing wich then in return made me land here..No Offensefellas. I don't write under all kinds of dubious screen names to clapp at myself outloud. I'm here for one thing. To write what comes to mind and to know I put it somehwere. I'm not religous but in to bling.
God bless you too.

Spot on, unfortunately. This is why I always look for obscure bookstores rather than mainstream ones. The same principle applies - but some people prefer everything well-packaged and predictable. Try something different and it is called ''vitriolic'' or ''deranged'' Sad, but true.

quetzacoatl thanks for your comment. You are one that I quite enjoy reading everytime I log on.
But before I get to the meat, I often search for the veggies first, just to get a taste of the other food group.

Thanks for your comment and your writing.

Alot of your comments make sense. You must realize with all things people will form groups and cater to them more. It is just the way of the world.
I usually read new authors who catch ny eye by the title of their story. It has to grab me. I am damn sure that I have overlooked alot of great writers here. There are just to many to keep up with. I usually look at the "stories" section before I look at everything else to see who is new out there.
As far as the newbies, in my opinion if you want to become a better writer they have to be willing to take criticism, and learn from it if it benefits them. Some people should not be allowed or even given (such as the most recently stripped "little boy-watermelon lover") permission to use the site if they are not serious about their own writing of the ones of others.
I am guilty sometimes for looking for the works of my favorites here alot, but come on thamagnopen, who isn't?
I will dedicate more of my time to reading new work by new authors, but we all seek recognition. That becomes apparent when contests begin. I to notice that comments on my work take a plunge quickly.
The "me me me" complex exists with all of us here to an extent. I think it would be a good idea just for everyone involved to make a commitment to read at least one new author when they log on to the sight with the intentions of being on it for a while.

Blackhand, it's guys like you who I think are leaders and voices of reason on sites like this.
If someone like you is willing to, when time allows read a new Author I think that makes a great statement for all.

Thank you for your comment, I really appreciate a guy like yourself saying what you said.
"Be well my friend"

Leaving intelligent comments also helps. For that reason, I have read various pieces from theblackpen and themagnopen. They both offer insightfulful comments, good criticisms and are able to point out where a piece could use improvement. Often, I'll follow a web of comments through and take a look at works that others have read and commented on - which allows me to read "older stories." Then, sometimes, I'll look at the new stories page.

Good read, thamagnopen. I've actually taken it upon myself to start at the very beginning and read everything. I haven't commented everything and it will take some time, but I at least want to try to read everything. There is some good writing early on for this site that has been overlooked. I haven't been on here much due to my gf visiting from Australia, but I intend to keep on reading and commenting. Once again this is a great comment and I hope others take it to heart.

I don't know if you'll get to everything but like me I know you are gona find some great writing that just pass you by while trying to "keep up with the gang"

I appreciate you saying that icanziiravor, and hope you find some stories that make my comment mean something to all the just out the closet writers who just wanna be heard.

Thanks again my friend.

Well, I don't use sites that require payment for services, so I can't speak on those.

During the current contest, I noticed about 200 entries were submitted on the first round and I think the most votes I saw on any one story was about 25!!!

I think that out of courtesy, that if we are posting for a contest and want others to read and rate our stories that we should reciprocate.
I read and rated each and every story during week 1, even though I did not feel inclined to comment on each of them.

Outside of contests, I don't think we have a responsibility to review so much of other's works, but it is nice if we can. It lends a sence of caring and community to the site.

For myself, I read as much as I can of anything I see on this site. I must admit that if I see something new by one of my fav authors, that I am more inclined to read their work, first. But curiosity usually gets me through just about all of the works posted.

It's a matter of individual taste and time.

Thanks Persephonie for your comment and for your opinion. "well taken"

By the way....I do NOT feel that comments should be all encouraging. Commenting on punctuation, spelling, grammer, structure, etc... all serves to encourage EXCELLENCE. If we do not care enough to look at our mistakes and correct them or at least consider the opinions of other artists, then we take no pride in what we do. If I am going to do anything, I intend to give it my all. I make quite a few of my own mistakes, but I fail to catch them. 20 pairs of eyes are better than 1. Yeah, like I've said before, I've given some off the cuff comments that could not have come close to being contrustive, but I have learned that this helps no one. We should really be open to all ideas. Only a real friend, someone who cares in you and wants to see you succeed, would dare tell you their true opinion...and that is an opinion I am willing to trust.

I agree that all comments don't need to be encouraging, but they can at least be kind...
Note: Some writers on this site can't spell, but they wanna write, Some writers on this site don't know punctuation,Grammer, Structure, etc... and nothing we are gona say to them constructive is gona teach them how, but they wanna write.
So I take the story for what it is, and casually mention the mistakes.
But Persephonie I agree with how you expressed your opinion.

Thanks and God Bless

I can accept grammatical errors easy enough, but when it comes to spelling... some mistakes are so clearly obvious, a six year old could catch them. Putting the work into a word processor and running a spell check would make such a difference for ease of reading... and it doesn't take that long... Who cares if you can't spell if the computer can fix it for you... but then, you should also be aware of the words you're using - as a writer, we all should be responsible for making our message as clear as possible.

edit: I can accept grammatical errors before I can accept spelling mistakes. But, an excess of anything that is in obvious voilation of all those rules we were supposed to learn in grade school really hinders my ability to enjoy a piece of writing. Spelling mistakes are easy to prevent.

In my opinion...I totally agree. I've put up two stories in which you and the original author of the contest left comments. I understand community and friends, but really we all benefit from checking out each other's stories. I hope everyone reads at least one other story when they submit one. Good luck.

B.

Thanks, I appreciate your comment, and I think we will all get something out of this in someway.

“But in every community there are the good and the bad.”

Hi thamagnopen~
The above statement from your chapter pretty much sums up all your points. (At least for me it did) Can we really expect an on-line website to act differently than any country, city or town on the planet? People are people after all. I think what will distinguish the differences of opinion here are the individual perceptions of what ‘good’ and ‘bad’ mean.
***
Cliques form when individuals share the same interests and goals. (To name a few reasons) You have to expect that certain writers are going to gravitate toward certain others. Writing styles, genres, etc.
Before judging, or calling any clique elitist or a ‘good old boys and girls’ club…we have to ask ourselves, ‘How did they become a group in the first place?’
Chances are none of them know each other. They didn’t sign on to SM and instantly become a part of this exclusive club. My guess is that they worked for it.
I personally TRY to read, vote and comment on as much as possible, but at the same time, I have developed a core group of writers that I enjoy very much and will check them for new chapters every time I log in. I do not feel guilty about this practice. It is the way that I prefer to spend my time on SM. And my core group is always growing. If I see someone has taken the time to read one of my chapters and leave me meaningful comments then I return the favor. If I enjoy their work then I will follow them too.
Additionally, I will browse the new stories from time to time and seek out something that catches my eye. (Like one of Berlingirls latest chapters) I would love to read everything, but who has the time?
I think a common mistake many newbies have is the expectation that readers will come to them. Because of the sheer volume of stories that get posted it is relatively easy for any chapter, regardless of how great it is, to get overlooked.
My best advice to a newbie or to anyone who is trying to become noticed is to comment as much as possible. Get your name out there. Don’t go out and just ask people to please come read your chapters…go out and leave meaningful comments and people will want to go read your chapters. Of course, not everyone will. Because, ‘Every community has good and bad.’ (your words)
As far as commenting goes…anyone who posts a chapter out here should be prepared to receive any number of varying opinions. From constructive criticism to jokes. Be ready to be told your grammar has errors or your sentence structure is flawed or your storyline is weak. Be prepared to get vague comments like ‘cool’ or ‘okay.’ And be prepared to get an occasional blast from someone who probably didn’t even bother to read it. Posters need to be thick skinned and learn how to take the ‘good’ with the ‘bad,’ and to not take them personally. Many writers become annoyed when commenter’s focus on grammar or punctuation. However this is part of writing. A great story can easily get lost or misinterpreted if the punctuation is terrible. Again, for me personally, if I come across a chapter that has atrocious punctuation and or spelling and I have to actually ‘work’ in order to understand it, than I can only assume that the author didn’t take the piece very seriously. I usually just move on. I do not feel guilty about this practice either. Of course we are all going to make mistakes…but as writers we need to do our best to edit our own work before we post it.
Regarding contests and the ‘it’s all about me attitude.’ But of course! Were talking about money here. It’s a dog eat dog world. Even some of the ‘good old boys and girls’ attack each other when it comes to winning contests. Log in on contest day and see how the top chapters flip flop every five minutes.
You made this statement, “…shares 50% of its advertisement revenue to its Authors, which is why I am there…”
I suspect that many people are here for different reasons. I’ve seen some who never post any chapters, they just come to read. I’ve seen some who never comment, just post chapters. Some people want to workshop and are seeking constructive criticism. Some just want to have fun and get pissed at criticism. Some are here to make money off the ads. And I’d be willing to bet that some are here just for the contests.
I don’t think it’s anyone’s place to pass judgment on anyone else regarding why they are here. If you like this site then just be happy that they are here.
With all that said, I think it’s great that you voiced your opinions and are taking the time to respond to those who have commented. You have brought up some great points and some valid concerns that obviously some others share.
Some things you mentioned will certainly improve going forward. The SM team is always working to better the site for everyone. There are some projects in the works that will hopefully unite SM users outside of their normal cliques. Keep your eyes open for those.
And please keep in mind…just as you suggested that people begin their comments with ‘In my opinion,’ this was in fact, ‘your opinion.’ Not everyone will share it. Even if you get fifty comments supporting it, there may be fifty more that don’t. Not everyone is going to agree on what constitutes ‘good’ and ‘bad.’

Dog, I couldn't have said it more eloquently.
I appreciate your reasoning, and thank you for giving others who read this more to think about.

Because again, I wrote what I wrote "Not to be right, but to be heard"

Critique works best with the sandwich method. Offer a positive comment.
Offer a carefully worded negative comment.
Offer a positive closing comment.
Pick the best positives and the most instructive of the negatives.
Do not slaughter.
Do not coddle.
It works best when the recipiant feels that the comments can be put to use immediately. Signing off with an insight you got from someone else tells the recipiant that you to want to learn.
So here is mine. "When the project is done the people will say,'We did this ourselves,'" Loa Tsu

One of the most moving comments yet! Thanks

This is a correction:Lao Tsu

I will make sure to read some of your work and other authors as well. I think participating in the contest(S)will get people to recognize your username. Also, I do believe as others have put it more eloquently, people gravitate to what interests them.
I, too, try not to comment if I don't have anything positive to say. Who am I to discourage someone? I may not like the work, but someone else may think it is phenomenal.
I think you have brought awareness to an issue and awareness is the first step in the resolution of a matter.

Powerfulpen "That all I'm Saying"

I agree that each person's comment is only their opinion, but I don't think it needs to be said each time. Isn't it rather implicit that a comment is the author's opinion only? 'this coffee is hot' - no spunch (think about it).

I do feel you are making a lot of comments that really needed to be made. My biggest suggestion for the site is that stories should be group by genre (and since their not, why are we asked for tags?) - since we're all looking to read what we enjoy, those who write our preferred genre(s) should have a better chance of being found. I, for one, just don't have a lot of online time for personal uses, so if I can sift out at least some of the stories I'm not as likely to care for, I'll actually be able to read more writers.

As for useless, cruel, or stupid comments, well, there, too, one has to learn to separate the chaff from the grain. And of course get snarky back once in a while when you don't agree with what is said. In fact, use it as an opportunity to be creative. Practically everyone loves reading a really well-crafted insult. Must remember to do that more myself. But it does hurt, through however tough a hide, when someone spits on your soul.

All in all, kudos for bringing up some very important issues.

Thanks Silver! very well said. And I am glad you brought up the Genre thing, Thats why I wrote this,just to get more folks talking about a site that we all seem to love.

Ooh, ick, yuck, I used their instead of they're! I loath that!

I read right through it! (LOL)
Thanks for the laugh.

God Bless

Magno --

I considered adding a second chapter tongue-through-cheek, but I fear it wouldn't've gone over well and I already have plenty of people to torpedo my stories without motivation.

Interesting "story," though I'm uncertain what goal you're trying to accomplish. Collect comments with positive feedback? Congrats - mission fulfilled. Encourage writers to contribute and share time and effort building each other's stories? Sure.

Because of your paragraph explaining the mechanices of StoryMash, should I assume this was a blog entry?

Comments and feedback _can_ be useful, whether it's by the good ole network or by brand new eyes. One of the advantages of being a long-timer (all of since January, if that counts) is familiarity. If you reference ShadowMan or CrystalFoo or A Cat Named History, I know who and what you're talking about. Doesn't mean you can't research and find out the same things, but I have more experience here. Same as someone in town knowing all the cool places to hang out as compared to what has a name and no atmosphere.

You complain about how no one leaves comments because everyone is trying to win a contest. I'll assume you're referring to October Chill. That was constructed by a newbie (Psycho). TheBlackHand has 30 Days to Live, which is a way to get your work read, commented on, and connected to the community. Houlgrave started a poetry mash. You want to get in? It's not like people are keeping you out.

I used to make the mistake of calling shots as I saw them. If I love it, you know it. If I think your story sucks? I say so. I tried to have the courtesy to explain what the issues were and provide alternative solutions. Enough people cried "Hissyfit!" that I rarely comment at all anymore. Appears to be the same case for Lamexicanita, who provided more valuable critiques than the majority of SM contributors.

There are ways to improve the community - add a chat room (egad!), notify when comments/additional chapters happen, create better profile pages... You want to offer suggestions, the admin here receive them pretty well. Only 8 months old, SM is still in the development phase. Offer improvements.

Leaving only positive comments "in my opinion?" How is that a writer's site? "Writing is easy. Stare at a blank page until your forehead starts to bleed." It's a difficult universe; why must SM provide a safe, kid gloves version of feedback? (I agree with whomever pointed out "in my opinion" is inherent with comments. If I write it, unless I'm referencing someone else, it is _my_ opinion.)

I can't remember if I've read your stuff before. With my current limited internet access, I can't believe I spent the time penning this comment. I don't know if I agree with the basis of your story, and if that puts me "on the other side," it appears that's where my good ole nature had me destined anyway.

I do enjoy Perse, ericwyatt, and silver's writing - commented to WWB in an email saying that specifically. You want a sense of community? Get an email address and start real letters outside the site. You want to read and write and post? Here's your place.

Lastly, I find it annoying when people solicit comments. Read me! Read me! Does it work? Sometimes. But I also occasionally contribute to the policemen's or firemen's organizations because they call and I think it's a good cause. Doesn't make the calls any less annoying.

-- Nash, feeling uppity for no particular reason

Uppity or not Nash, I dig what ya saying!
And the fact that ya said it means evrything.

Thanks With lots of respect.

Hi There!! I wanted to pick out a few things specifically from your piece that raised questions for me. So here it goes:

“The good old boys and gals write about each others work as if they are all accomplished published authors saying things like "I couldn't leave my computer, your work leaves me spellboun , and you are truly one of the best on this site! etc.........”
--1--How do you know that they don’t really feel that way? You don’t. It’s been said in a few posts and you said it yourself to Quetzalcoatl, people grow to love certain authors’ works and log on to check them out. Any art form is like that. I love Matisse, not so fond of Dali. Should poor old Salvador weep in his grave because I don’t buy a print every time I pass by one? Or because I scratch my head and think, “What the Hell was that guy smoking?” This site is about sharing writing and sharing comments. If you want to get recognized, you have to get your name out there by commenting on other people’s work. I for one try very hard to read and leave comments for the authors who comment on my stories. It’s a great place to start ‘meeting’ new authors. I don’t expect the same in return and don’t always get the same in return. It’s just my practice. I don’t like to expect things will go my way, I like to work for them to go my way. Life is not a free ride and StoryMash isn’t either. I’ve been a member since December 9th and believe me, it took a lot of writing and a lot of comments for me to really get noticed.
--2—Name them. Why are people so quick to claim there is a good ole boys and girls club, but not to point them out? I’ve won 2 contests in a row and it’s hard for me not to imagine that you think I’m included in that club. If that’s egotistical of me, so be it. I spend a lot of time on this site, checking out new stuff, voting, and commenting, and I truly enjoy every minute of it. I am so excited to work for StoryMash and to try to help this site reach its full potential. But mentioning the good boys and girls club is as unproductive and mean spirited as leaving a nasty comment. And it’s frustrating for those of us who are longtime members and really care about the site. Not saying you shouldn’t say it, just telling you how I feel

“Comments that don't serve as encouragement to the Author should be kept to ones self.”- True, but they won’t be. I’ve had my share of mean spirited comments. I’ve said it before though, I like people who are different and who make me think in different ways, positive AND negative. As a writer, those are the people who inspire me. If you don’t like them, just ignore them. Turn the other cheek, right?
“All the so-called great Authors on the site should take time every time they log in to read! And comment! Others work instead of working on how ya gona win the contest! You are overlooking some great reads! Whether they are short, long, misspelled, coma not in right spot etc....”- Again, having won two contests in a row, it’s hard not feel that this is on some level aimed at me. I do, personally, read a lot of stuff on this site. I can’t read everything, I have a full time job and a family. And there are some authors that I consistently don’t like and don’t read. In my mind it’s better not to read something than to read it and leave a “hated it, one star,” type comment. I have 566 comments so far. In the past week, for example, I’ve commented on JeremyHillaryBoobPhD who has 2 chapters written, Vigilante who has 4 chapters written, and JamesTomson who has 3 chapters written. Some other new authors I enjoy are Silver, VictorMensa, Ericswyatt and Visigoth71. Check them out.
For the record, I don’t read things that have a lot of grammar and spelling errors, meaning so many it’s distracting. To me it shows a lack of respect for the English language which is something I happen to love. I have spent a lot of time reading and studying English and to me, using it properly is important for expressing yourself. You said you were a musician. If I picked up a trumpet one day, having never studied music a day in my life, and starting blasting away claiming to be a musician. And when you told me I wasn’t playing properly and wanted to help me learn, I told you I didn’t care to learn anything about music, I just wanted to play it, how would you feel? I respect people who want to be writers and who want to improve in EVERY aspect of writing. In my opinion that includes grammar, spelling, syntax, all of it.
"God Bless you all for who you are and what you do." -Even the people are not going to read and comment on everything. Even the people are going to be mean and those who will be saccharine. Even the people are in-it-to-win-it. We all make this site the varied and very interesting place that it is.

Honeygloom, your comments excite me! and I appreciate the fact that people like yourself gave your input also. Sites such as this are special to me. And when something that has clearly been on the minds of many isn't said I felt it was time to say it.

I loved your examples, like the trumpet player, cause thats one of the instruments I mastered in.
And if someone told me that they "didn't want to learn music" and that they just wanted to blow, I'd get far away but I would respect that. (LOL)

Question: Is this site suppose to be a fun site or a College Course for aspiring Authors?
honeygloom, some people "just wanna blow" They care not about being an accomplished Published Author "Okay?" Let them have fun too.

Question: Are people that don't have the knowledge to write correctly in your opinion haters of the English language?... I think we all love the English Language, some just, on this site don't feel like they got to be right in every way to have fun writing a story.
Remember... This isn't College or a Authoring Class.

You said you don't read stories with grammer or spelling errors, Well honeygloom, I do because I don't have Got-to-be-right-uss (I made that up.. (LOL) but it fits.

You guys and girls need to relax, don't be so uptight about things that aren't that serious.

Oh" and honeygloom, I wrote "Good ole boys and girls network" for nothing more but to see which ones would come out and say or think to themselves "He's talking bout me" I didn't have to call out anyone, and I didn't mean to call out anyone. I just wanted to call out the situation to the masses, and hope that it would change if only a bit the mind set of some, on this great site.

Question: Can you name the Published,Professional,
Books on the shelf Authors who are part of this site?
My point is (in my opinion) there are very few people on this site that are professionals.
We're just a lot of amateurs with some, that think a little too much of themselves, and if that somehow gives them strength then (God Bless Them)

"Some people need to be right, and others just need to be"

In closing, please don't think of me as a trouble maker or anything like that. I am totally on the side of the site, I have my favs too, Theblackhand, persephonie, Dog, yourself, and I could name ten more, which I guess puts me in some sort of network too. (LOL) I just hope we don't run away the folks that just want to write... Thats all!!!

IF THIS IS A CLASS LETS GET RID OF ALL THE FOLKS THAT DON'T RESPECT THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!!!(LOL) "I'M KIDDING"

God Bless you and thanks for such a great heart felt Comment.