Collaborative Creative Writing Community

Uh...well....no. No thoughts on the context, anyway.
I do have some thoughts on "randomized judge" though. I know that "randomized" is, in fact, a word but, danged if I can associate it...lol.
I could see a "randomly selected judge" or maybe a "judge selected at random". Who would actuate the randomization? Would the judge volunteer or be selected by one of the other judges not necessarily available for randomization. Maybe the randomized judge would resent being selected; thinking that randomized and sodomized were simply, too close to call!
"HG, your friends and neighboring judges have decided to randomize you to read WWB's chapter."
"Ewww, randomized? No, thanks."
"Come on, HG, he's paid his fee! Someone has to do it and everyone else is allergic to randomization!"
"No way, give him his money back. Besides, how can you insinuate that I'm not a good judge and randomize me for it?"
"That's not the point, HG, no one said you weren't a good judge! We can't have WWB picking his judge can we? We have to randomly select someone to judge his chapter."
"If you and the others are picking me, it's not random, is it?"
"Well...."
"We should all draw straws or something."
"How the heck do we do that? We're hundreds of miles apart!"
"I don't know. It was your idea, figure it out. But I won't be randomized, I'll tell you that, for sure!!"

LMAO...okay just funnin' wid ya.

For the record, I like being randomized...

We're all randomized, yet none of us are.

LOL...I wished I'd have known that before I posted that spoof!!

I will never wish something more than that I hadn't used the word "randomize." It will haunt me always. :)

Are you kidding, Katrina? I loved it. I had SO much fun with it....LMAO. I bet you have a bag full of words like that...please share some more!! ;o)

That just totally made my day. ^_^
&& I believe my thoughts went much in the same direction when I first saw the post.

I applaud the attempt to come up with a solution, but I think this is a terrible idea.

First, $5 is a lot of money for a chance at being considered competitive by some random judge to then have another chance at being considered the top chapter and winning $100. It's a fool's bet. And who gets the money? Storymash? The belabored randomized judge?

Second, the terms of the deal are dangerously vague. You pay $5 to a random "judge" who now has to determine subjectively if the chapter is "competitive". What does that mean? Does that judge have to consider it to be higher ranked than the 10th story in the group or than the 1st story in the group? Does the judge then have to recuse him/herself from the judging because he/she has already been paid to read this chapter and has a bias? Does that mean the one judge who was solidly in your corner now won't get to rank your chapter decreasing your chances of winning? And who are the judges/beneficiaries? The same folks who came up with the community voting system, who now gain from needing to fix the inequities inherent therein?

Third, this proposition does little to quell the accusations of unfairness for the top 10. Now instead of 11th and on chapters being penalized by not being considered for the contest, those chapters are penalized by being required to shell out money that the top 10 chapters don't have to.

Fourth, this proposal sends the wrong message. Nobody is going to shell out the $5 unless he/she thinks his/her chapter is so freakin' awesome that it's got to win. I don't think authors who makes it into the top 10 have that kind of blind faith in their own chapters, and I don't think that kind of stubbornness should be encouraged. We're all on here to learn how to be better writers, not to insist that we already are.

Finally, this proposal also sends the message that Storymash needs to be paid in order to adjust an inequity. Currently, Storymash already makes money on everyone's chapter. It's not up to the authors to adjust the business model so judges get paid to be fair, it's up to you all in the SM staff. Find another way to raise the necessary capital, or find more volunteer authors. Don't make the aggrieved authors bear this monetary burden.

I'm sorry if this post comes across as overly critical, and I want to state again that I'm glad to see SM staff actively coming up with ideas to make things more fair. I just think this proposal is way, way off the mark.

Agreed.

Do you think $1 or $2 would be fair? How much would you consider paying?

The reading fees would go towards paying those judges who, as of now, are purely volunteers.

Would you think it better if the reading fee ensured that the chapter would be read by all judges?

As far as your question about how the judges will look at the chapter--as a higher ranked chapter or not...I hardly think this matters. When the judges read and rate the chapters, if you look at the past rounds, the ratings hardly coincide with the rankings that the SM community has awarded the chapter. Does that make sense?

I feel as though you're offended by this proposal, and I assure you that this was not the intention. We (as in the SM team) opted to propose this after taking in loads of feedback and criticisms regarding the current contest. Any and all suggestions on how to make this more fair are welcome.

The $5 is a fair amount. Out of that fee $1 or $2 per entry should go to the judges and the $3 left should go to the reviewers/editors who proofread the stories before the judges see them.

Just to clarify: only the winning chapters are edited.

I'm not offended, though I do find the concept of charging slighted writers to read and evaluate their entries as offensive. It's shutting down complaints by suggesting a mechanism to "appeal" the top 10 rankings, but one that few if anyone is likely to use. If I were a slighted 11th chapter, I would neither fork over $5 to get a mere chance to be in the contest, nor would I be satisfied that I was fairly treated because I had that option. Would you? Would anyone here?

I'm not saying it isn't work to judge these contests. I know, I judged three of them already. And I'm not saying it isn't one option to make contestants pay an entry fee. But ALL contestants, not just the ones who feel unfairly treated in the first place. (Note: I'm not in favor of an entry fee because I think it will do more harm than good, but at least it's fair as long as it's fairly applied to everyone.)

You say you don't have enough volunteers to winnow through deserving stories? Have you asked for any? Perhaps a rotating forum of SM members can be tasked with giving all the entries a quick read - then elevate by vote that rare under-ranked story that ought to be considered with the top 10. Perhaps a nominating mechanism, wherein any story that merits 10 'nom's gets automatically considered along with the top 10. There are other free options to consider too.

Katrina, I'm not offended, and I apologize if I'm coming off as jumping down your throat on this. I was treating this blog post as if you made this proposal expecting it to be either voted up or down. If you meant to have this blog post as a way of facilitating discussion of all ways to fix the community voting issues, then see my suggestions above and I encourage others to weigh in on alternative suggestions to this one as well.

Correction - I've only judged two contests, and neither had even 10 stories in them. But I do get how difficult it is. It's hard enough just reading and ranking the top 10 as a non-judge.

We have advertised for volunteer judges and are doing our best to get more, absolutely.

No worries--it's always hard to "read" how people are feeling when it's just through a comment on a blog post.

I understand re: having either all pay or none. That makes sense.

This post was definitely meant as a proposal--before we start any new rules such as this one, we always want to see how the community will react. Reading fees in particular were brought into play because a couple of SM users had suggested them as a solution for not all chapters being read by the judges.

Thanks again for being so open with your feedback and ideas! :)

No problem, always happy to add my two(ish) cents. (I've posted an alternative proposal in the forums for anybody interested.)

I'm getting ready to check it out now!

In a real life scenario a book would be reviewed and edited before it was published. I think a $5 fee is very reasonable. The fee would get some of the english and typos corrected along with only entering meaningful stories into the contest. The contest would only be fair though if the stories were only picked from the "reading pool" which would mean that no stories entered without a $5 fee would qualify. The money should go to the readers (They could be called the editors and reviewers) and the readers should not be the current judges. After the Editors and Reviewers have read all entries and find them to qualify for the contest then all those stories should be read by the judges and a decision made.

I really like the idea, though am not sure about it being up to just one judge. Maybe two to make it more fair? I don't know. I have seen that some judges judge on personal taste rather than quality of writing, so that's the basis of my concern. (for example, the judge in the latest contest who gave lower scores to the gorier chapters...)

Anyway, the entry fee sounds fair. From what I understand, most writing contests are not free, so it seems logical to pay to enter. I can't imagine the site makes too much off our chapters, so I would guess the entry fee would help cover the cost of the prize money. I think the entry fee will limit entries to serious chapters, which will make it easier for us readers, not having to flip through seven pages of entries.
I also like the idea of having the top ten reader voted chapters entered in with out the entry fee, but can see where that would be confusing. Will we have a specific link where we will enter the contest?

Soon (hopefully by the next contest), there will be an opt-out option for those who do not want their chapters to be eligible for the contests.

Thanks so much for your feedback!

I think an opt-in option would suit you better than an opt-out option.

I agree. Having an opt-in feature will decrease more stories then having an opt-out. Human beings are lazy. They will think, hm I didn't write this to be in a contest but whatever, I don't want to click that button over there. Where as on the other side of the coin, opting in, people will think, this chapter isn't for the contest so I don't need to click this button over here. So much easier.

Point taken completely. :)

I guess everyone is going to maintain the serious bone on this, so; here's my two cents.
I for one will never use this option whether it costs $5 or two-bits. The way I see it, if the community voters don't put a chapter into the top ten...why would a single judge think otherwise; essentially overrule them? You've already made a change that helps late posters. I think there are several like minded folks here. So, institute it if you will and those that want to take advantage of it can do so, while those of us who don't... won't.

OH....before I sign off. Entry Fee? How did we get into that? The question was whether we would pay a fee (not contest entry) to have a "randomized judge" read a single chapter that was not included in the top ten and determine whether it merits being considered along with the top ten stories. Again...we aren't talking about an ENTRY FEE....it's a VOLUNTARY READING FEE for those of us who feel their story should have been in the top ten, when the rest of the community didn't think so.

I think you've guys missed the reason some felt that their chapter belonged in the top ten. I mentioned this in the last contest and I was shot down, but anyway, there wasn't a point to a deadline if there wasn't time to read someone's chapter if they turned it in later than everyone else. Now that there is a voting period of one day where no entries are allowed, this gives people more of a chance for their story to be seen and voted on accordingly. This fee or whatever seems like a solution that was needed for our original problem (later entries not being seen) but now we have a better solution (extra voting day) so this plan seems like one that is only being added because a few people didn't like being bumped out of the top ten. Then again if people are so adamant about their story being in the running to win, shelling out $5 is their own business. If this plan goes through though we will have a whole new wave of problems and people complaining their random judge was not being fair or what not.

Makes sense to me.

No, its really unfair. Money will be able to buy way to victory this way (just as we see in politics).
Nice try solving the problem but I doubt if this is the answer.

I suggest you get more and more judges and try to read all entries just as they are published. This way judges won't have to go through all stories in a few days.

OK...here's a serious comment for you (Storymash).
For months and months we (the writing membership) has been asking for a programmatic change that allows a vote ONLY in conjunction with a comment. In the current contest, I have 3 comments (other than my own) and 10 votes. The last two votes have driven my standing way down. The 3 comments were made before vote #5 occurred. At least 3 of the last 5 votes were very low and were not accompanied by comment.
Instead of figuring out new ways to satisfy folks that feel mistreated because their chapter was not among the top ten.....FIX the DAMNED voting system!! Thank you.
PS..I am not the only one whose scores have tumbled (this contest round) for the same reason, without ryhme of reason.

Would a forced comment provide an advantage? I could see the potential for a lot of unintelligent comments - which won't help the writer and possibly piss off other readers.

Trust me--the SM team has done all possible to "fix" the voting system. While it's definitely not perfect, it's much improved upon how it was at the beginning.

Also, all votes are monitored to hopefully catch any sort of "cheaters" and correct their cheating votes.

I don't necessarily think that forcing voters to comment will do any good. First, the person could say, "Nice job," while voting a .05 just to boost their own work. And, as was pointed out, there's a good chance this won't make any difference except bringing even more hard feelings onto this site.

I still stand behind my idea of 'recommending' chapters - or some similar way for people to vote that can't be negated by jerks trying to 'fix' the competition.

As far as the reading fee:

I agree that the extra 'reading day' should make a difference in the issue. The complaint was that entries submitted on the due date itself would not be posted long enough to get rated into the top ten, even if it was the best stinkin' writing ever, and therefore this incredible, wonderful piece of work wouldn't even be looked at by the judges. I believe that the extra day for reading and rating will help - though, again, this gives nasty individuals an opportunity to maliciously down-rate the entries of people they don't like. (Honestly, all these issues are related.) In general, I agree with the idea of an 'opt-in' so that only entries that are supposed to be for the contest will actually be entered. I do not agree with the idea of an entry fee applying to all entries - largely because I am poor and would likely stop entering into the contest altogether, and that would make me sad. :-( (See? That's me being sad.) One thing that I love about this site is that the members are able to take part in grand things like contests and community projects and collaborative work and don't have to pay money to do so.

Overall, I think we should wait and see what kind of feedback comes in after this round, with the one rating day before the finalists are picked. If people are still complaining that their entry didn't get a fair chance to be seen by the judges, then a system like this certainly could work, though I think that if you're asking $5, that fee shouldn't be a 'reading fee' for a chance of being entered in the contest, but should rather be an entry fee. And yes, I do think it's fair to ask that individuals who weren't in the top ten to pay money that the individuals in the top ten didn't have to pay, because - and here I get idealistic and imagine that everyone rated the chapters based strictly on artistic merit - the tribe (I mean, the community) has spoken, and those top ten are the most loved by the community. (Again, that view demands a touch of idealism.)

My thoughts are if there's a reading fee imposed, it should be for all submitted entries. No exception for the top ten.

Katrina

To read good writing is its own reward. Not having to read the other kind is its own salvation.
The forum for writing on these blogs is ??? to get paid or to get criticism ??? "Randomized",,, sounds like a Bush'ism to me.

Blabby

Oh dear. I muttered a Bushism. I think I'm going to go hide in the closet and cry all day. boo! :)

Blabby

Now thats just mean. why would you tell anyone they sound like Bush??? How would you feel if I told you that you sound like GW?? Huh?

(hehe)

R

I have to admit that I deserved it, though. Even though I'm none too happy about it ;)

Katrina should not be made the martyr here. (hmmm...don't think I used that right but you get the idea.) She is simply the representative chosen to express a POSSIBLE solution composed by a group of individuals trying to rectify a situation.
This "READING FEE PROPOSAL" is not something that the SMteam concocted out of greed. Your fellow (bratty--but I'm not judging) authors are simply determined to continue to change the contest to put odds in his or her favor.
I cannot remember who mentioned the fact that the Voting Day already solved the initial problem, but I am inclined to agree. The SMteam is not obligated to go any further. This is not a scholarship contest in which every entry must be regarded. Think of it more as a raffle with favored odds. The top ranked stories just have more ticket.

Now. Stop berating our kind storymash representatives for the actions and opinions of other people.

Pardon me while I brush the hair out of my eyes from high speed writing...

The voting day is a very good idea, in my opinion.

Opt in is even better.

Recommend makes a lot of sense and should do much to stop vicious acts of downgrading other writers' ratings. Or at least lessen their effect on rankings.

Personally, I'd love to see all three be part of the contests.

Gotta go, my word count is slipping.

Thumbs down!

Somehow the idea of slipping a judge a fiver to reconsider one's contest entry doesn't sit right with me. Not that there is anything unethical in it per say, it just seems out of keeping with the spirit of the site. It appears emotions are running pretty high regarding this issue; if someone pays and is accepted- or wins- some will cry "bribery" or if they're not accepted they'll be complaints of a money scam. Hopefully good writing (whosever it may be) will speak for itself and the cream will rise to the top despite the efforts of a few malcontents. I thoroughly enjoy this site and hope it remains a fun and positive environment.
Chloe

Okay _ I know this is not where I should be posting this, but when I go directly to Blog the only options I have are to comment on existing discussions - SO WHERE DO I BEGIN A QUESTION/DISCUSSION IF I CANNOT POST? I cannot locate a comment box anywhere else to talk to you guys.

Hi there~
You can begin a discussion in the Forum at www.storymash.com/f/